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Alan, Of course everything you say is correct. My own company is well know for it's practices, the board of directors votes itself bigger and bigger bonuses and stock options and yet cuts the benefits we get. Every year our pay raises get less and less, while medical insurance gets higher and higher. My company is self insured, so the costs are'nt going anywhere. It's now reached the stage where a raise does'nt cover the increases, so we're getting poorer, I only stay because I'm close to retirement. There was a bunch of our upper management caught falsifying profits, the stock went through the ceiling at the false report, they all sold out and then told the truth [insider trading]. As a consequence, the stock fell by 60% and all the employees savings went with it, mine included. They were all charged with insider trading, but it's all fizzled out, surprise surprise.
John
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John, it's fair to say overall, private corporate capitalism performs for the powerful, management, and society's fortunate few,it is equally irresposible as regards the environment except where it's wrong doings would be immediately apparent.It can put cheap products into the marketplace, but at what true long term cost ? The world cannot sustain ever increasing production,yet we are constantly told that the answer to any problem is 'increased production and higher efficiency'!.
Look at what up to now has been a subdued continent,China, this year they will produce one million vehicles, and their economy is expanding faster than any other ! Polution in China is such that in many cities one cannot see further than one hundred yards and the unfortunate residents have to wear masks in order to breath !.This socialist in name only country, which is in reality a tyranical oppresive economy, totally depends upon exporting its products to the west and is encouraged to do so by the terms of the 'free market agreements' derived by the very politicians who purport to be our representatives!. Incidentally,what happened to the notion that our politicians should primarily persue the interests of their constituents, rather than play the good boy on the international stage ?
At some time in the not too distant future China will have to strengthen its currency with respect to the dollar,it is currently held at an artificially low fixed exchange rate, it's workers will also demand improvements and as a consequence, other countries with an even cheaper labour force will be sought for exploitation, the result being large unemployment in China. Try to imagine the scenario of mass unemployment and unrest rest in China, and the implications that could result to the rest of the world ! Currently markets have not been completely saturated with goods but is that day not approaching , remember the free market produces to saturation, then closes ,production is not governed by the logic of need !
When any major project is commenced, it's progress depends upon a plan, nothing of major significance is ever attempted without a plan, yet when any suggestion of a planned society is put forward, cries of socialism are forthcoming! The standards upon which all societies depend, be it the judiciary, weights and measures,international standards associations, are all run as a service to their respective societies rather than as competitive organisations ,the services performed by these organisations is not perforned on a competitive basis, it;s too important to be left to the chaos of a free market ! .
So it's apparent that an organised society becomes inevitable if chaos is not to prevail. Having said that , why not embrace cooperation as a society rather than competition ?
Present business methods show that our free societies really tolerates 'the freedom to rob and pilliage by the few of power and privelidge at the expence of the majority',but, has it ever been any different? Just what is accomplished on behalf of civilised society by the likes of George Soros and friends at the secretive economic forums at Duvos Switzerland ,the club of Rome, or for that matter the World bank ? Has anyone other than the powerful individuals under question ever been invited to these functions? Not to my knowledge !
Alan M
( 'Suppose you were an idiot,and suppose you were a member of congress; but I repeat myself' ! - Mark Twain )
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Your comments are most interesting, Alan, but then you live in Canada where the news is so much better than in the US and has a population more politically sophisticated. This is not to explain away your evident interest in what goes on and your very pertinent observations.
Tha "age of greed" began with Reagan and has not slackened. I think one has to understand the 'mentality' that pervades the American psyche to grasp why we are so corrupt and greedy. Spengler wrote that the biggest confidence trick ever perpetrated on a nation was that of the British ruling classes in making the population believe only they were fit to rule. In the US, this is replaced by the absurd belief that all you have to do is work hard and you too can become a billionaire. Thus, so many Americans are opposed to any form of taxation on the ultra-rich, since they hope one day to be there! Absurd! Indeed. But you must know we are a nation built entirely on myths, from the altruistic founding fathers and a Constitution that at best typified hypocrisy by announcing that "all men are created equal" yet continued to practise slavery, to such a small myth like Abner Doubleday's invention of baseball.
I have a partial answer to your questioning free societies, I believe. The fact is we are only free within the limitations imposed by the powerful. As long as the powerful are allowed to do what they want, then society can be as free as it wishes. In a concrete example, we have today in the US massive amounts paid by corporations to politicians so that regulations and controls on their ability to poison the air, the land and the sea, and thus inhibit ever greater profits.
George Soros has donated millions to excellent causes to relive misery in the world. He is one of the powe4ful who has spoken out about the abuses of his peers and undoubtedly has influenced many areas of society that are yet not earth-shaking. But then, such events by individuals are rare anyway. The Club of Rome led to the EU and for all its faults and imperfections the EU has proven to be very successful as an economic factor in Europe's betterment.
In my opinion, the next step for the EU is to create a unified foreign policy and a defense force that is independent of the US. It is plain that people like Bush and those in his Administration with minor exceptions intend to call all the shots throughout the world. This is as dangerous as the hegemony sought by the former Soviet Union and, unfortunately, only now exists as a threat because of the demise of the SU. There needs to be a balance.
I agree with you that the greater the complexity of society brought about by population explosions and the rapid pace of technology requires organized societies that protect its peoples from the powerful. This is why I find the Libertarian argument so puerile.
In spite of parts of China being so polluted (really no different than Korea - ever been to Seoul? - and other thriving Asian nations) the fact remains that 25% of world pollution emanates from the US whose population is but a fraction of the world population. And now Bush is abolishing the Clean Air Act,allowing 17,000 power stations in the US to emit what noxious substances they want. WE have enormous vehicles, SUVs and an ever increasing population of the ugliest vehicle in creation, the Hummer, that guzzles gas like a truck and people are encouraged to buy them for business since the tax break lets them off $17,000 from the purchase price and that is just the start.
The above is not a reasoned response to your post, Alan, but just a series of thoughts as they occur on the theme you started. By the way, I heard on a quiz program yesterday on National Publkic Radio that the US has 21 million more vehicles than population. Let's stop China bashing!
BillR
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We shoulkd be able to edit what we write! I left unfinished the sentence about regulations and controls on corporations; it should have ended "...and thus inhibit ever great profits, may be annulled".
BillR
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rigby
We shoulkd be able to edit what we write!
We can! Just click on the icon with a little pencil in it in the bar above your post - this allows you to amend your posting if you spot any mistakes or change your mind! [  ]As for the discussion (a departure from Easter!) I'm in agreement with most of what's been said, but I wouldn't heap too much praise on the EU. I received email from Oxfam today about a campaign it's mounting to try to stop the EU dumping surplus products (milk in particular) at below cost price in third world countries. EU subsidies are encouraging farmers to produce more than can be sold in the EU so the excess is dumped in other countries far cheaper than local producers can afford to sell at - the local producers are put out of business and poverty escalates. I've heard this from other sources too - last week Radio 4 carried a news article about how farmers in Albania are going out of business because they can't compete with cheap imported crops from Greece, where the farmers get an EU subsidy. When people cannot compete on an even playing field, it's bound to create resentment and unrest. Generally speaking, I'm in favour of the EU, but the Common Agricultural Policy needs a serious looking at!
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Interim paradox. I believe that possibly the most eloquent and sincere politician ( if that's what he is), that I can think of is Ralph Nader ! If I were in the USA,I believe I would have been tempted to have voted for him. How Ralph would have responded to the Sept 11 tragedy, I do not know,but I cannot see Ralph directing the miltary to drop bombs on anyone !. However, had Ralph not participated in the last US election, the vote rigging in Florida would have been irrelavant, and GWB would not have been in the White House !
Alan M
( Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to reflect.- Mark Twain )
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This is getting scary, I actually agree with everything that Bill R and Alan M are saying. Not heard anything about 'The New World Order' which really is a big worry. Any comments or thoughts ?
John
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Gentlemen,hopefully ladies too , thanks for your responses, keep it going, we satisfy our anxieties if nothing else,we seem to like to discuss similar subjects,too serious for home discussion,cannot encroach on Martha or Murder she wrote !
The philanthropic role, one could constrew as hypocritical,yet good work is achieved through the voulintary contributions of such, we know that George Sorus amongst others, does much good work,equally he's the guy that made billions speculating on the pound sterling,and is reputed to have once brought the Bank of England near to insolvency , he continues to ammass fortune upon fortune doing the same,all over the world. I guess one could argue that should he not do so, nothing would change and the positive contributions provided by same would not occurr,point made, but its ironical !
We all come from the Preston area, if Harris had not had business fortitude we would not have the beautiful Harris museum and Art gallery, Carnoge Hall, the list is endless, yet, the private fortunes which paid for all these splendid edifices were made at the expense of everyone else. Of course , had it not been so, only publically funded institutions would be present.
( "Money is like manure,you have to spread it around or it smells" - J.Paul Getty
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To combine this with comments in another thread, Liverpool has many fine buildings, but the fortunes that built them were made in the slave trade in the 18th century. Men's philanthropy to their fellow citizens was financed by selling other humans, though that probably didn't seem as twisted then as it does now - Africans were seen as a commodity, not people.
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Rocketmanjohn, New world order !
It's interesting to see that the Asian miracle of a few years ago has quietened, the Japanese stock market and it's economy has been on hold for years,and horror of horrors, deflation did rear it's ugly head and is a danger there. This you will recall was the economy whose industrial base was long accepted as the model for the world !
Of course there never was anything other than basic commom sense,simple logic behind all the so called 'Japanese industrial and business methods',but having persuaded the MBA's of upper management otherwise, the notion allowed all manner of North American con artists,professors,'just in time consultants', publicists and business course professional entrepreneurs to make a fortune for themselves on the lecture circuits. They are there still under a different guise, pedalling or instilling their latest wares, just as their brothers do likewise on the Sunday 'instant miracle' religious shows !
Having turned the largest surplus ever, into the largest deficit ever,and ensuring decades of further debt, the MBA leading the world is going all out to print money at record pace in order to pay for the Chinese imports sold in Walmart and elswhere. The Chinese meanwhile keep on working for a pitance, their leaders busy invoicing the world and accumulating rewards which they convert to gold, and hopefully purchasing bonds to refinance the deficit. North America having exported much of it's manufacturing base, assists by printing money as fast as the presses can turn it out !
I guess that this alright providing the Chinese are happy to continue to receive the dollars (the value of which is not based upon gold but on CONFIDENCE, i.e. the notion that all is well and will remain so),and continue to purchase treasury bonds.
I sincerely hope that confidence in confidence remains high !
Alan M
( The entire essence of America is the hope to first make money -then make money with money - then make lots of money with lots of money- Paul Erdman )
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